[music] [music] [music] Quick note before we jump in today. Uh we had some tech issues at the start of this uh episode and unfortunately on the video end I forgot to hit record. So those of you who like to watch Echoes Unfiltered uh on video on Spotify or YouTube, I apologize, but I will have uh numerous pictures from my guest today who I love this conversation, but I’ll have numerous pictures from my guest uh on overlay on this video. So God bless.

Real talk, raw faith. Stay unfiltered. Welcome back to Equas Unfiltered. I’m Sam Stratton. Today I have a special guest on. His name Bill Hatunian. Now Bill was a chopper pilot during Vietnam. And I have been really excited to have this interview and cannot wait to hear some of his uh experiences that he had.

So with that, Bill, I guess uh number one, how you doing? And tell me a little bit about yourself. >> I’m doing just fine. I’m happily retired and uh just getting along. >> Getting along to get along. Okay. So, what year did you join the military? >> I joined the army in September of 1966. >> Now, September of 1966.

 Was the drafting going on yet? >> Oh, yeah. Big time. >> Okay. So, you did you get drafted or did you join? >> I joined. And you chose the army out of all branches like I did. I guess we’re not real smart sometimes. So, so tell me a little bit. You you joined and uh why don’t you give me a little bit of how you ended up as a chopper pilot.

>> My mother’s father, my grandpa was a World War I veteran. >> Mhm. >> My dad was a World War II veteran. They both got drafted. I had uh cousins that went to Korea, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. A lot older than me, of course. >> And then when Vietnam came around, let’s just say my scholastic aptitude wasn’t quite up to par.

So, I was looking at the draft or to join. Now, I had some friends of mine that I was in ROC with that had already said, you know, I’m tired of this. I I just want to join. I want to go fly. So they did. And so I’ve followed their footsteps and that’s why I joined so that I could get what I wanted because the army had a flight program that was quite active at that time.

 And the the the rule of thumb was if you can pass all the prerequisites, you can go to flight school. And if you can pass flight school, you’re in like flint. >> Yeah. So I did. >> And you became a warrant officer. >> I did. >> Okay. So you you became a pilot and went through your training. I’m sure that probably took a while.

 And then >> nine months. >> Nine months of training. >> Yeah. >> And what kind of equipment were you on? [laughter] Well, the we went to Fort Walters, Texas first for the first five months and we flew this little thing called the Hughes 269 with a threebladed helicopter with a little bubble canopy that the engine was connected to the transmission by seven rubber bands.

So, we all had a good time laughing about that. I didn’t fly that one. I flew that one later with Phoenix PD, but not at the time I was going to flight school. So, I flew the O23, which was a little bigger and actually had a drivetrain from the engine to the transmission. >> Okay. >> Drive shaft rather. And then from there, I went to Fort Rucker and then we transitioned into Hueies.

flew all models of the Huey and then um went overseas. I was lucky enough that I got to fly every every model of the UH1 helicopter either during training or on active duty, including the Cobra. >> Oh, really? >> Yeah. >> I got such warm fuzzies in Iraq when I saw the Cobras. I just felt so safe. Yeah, it was an awesome machine.

>> Okay, so you you got trained on all these different machines and tell me a little bit about when you got in country. How did it start? >> Well, after the inrocessing, you know, I I got to my unit and there was a classmate of mine that happened to go through all this with me and there were the two there was the two of us.

 In fact, there were three of us that flew over together on the same flight and the three of us flew home together at the end of our tour uh on the same flight. So, that was nice. >> Yeah. >> He went to a brigade and and flew a scout helicopter for brigade headquarters whereas Jim Erenss and I went uh to the quarter calf first infantry division.

 when we when we were checking in after we landed, you know, and the next morning they had this big sheet of paper on the board and they’re telling you where you’re going and it says first infantry division and you’re going, “Wait a minute, I’m a helicopter pilot. Why do you want to go infantry division? What is this all about?” >> Yeah.

>> Well, yeah, it was kind of scary, but you know, we’re brand new. What do we know? Anyway, long story short, uh I got to fly gunships. He went to the scout platoon and uh we we served our year. >> And what was that year like over in Vietnam? And the reason I asked that is I have um I had worked with some some people that were Vietnam veterans.

 And before I got activated to send to Iraq, I’m thinking, man, I’m I’m glad I’m going to Iraq, even though it was Ramani, the the most dangerous place on Earth at that time. I still said to him, “I’d rather go there than than go fight in the jungle or fight in Vietnam.” >> Well, since I live out here in the desert, I can relate to those guys.

>> Yeah. >> And I was in the National Guard here. Uh that’s another story. But, um it’s interesting because there’s really not a whole lot of difference between in terrain. You know, it’s desert, >> hills, >> sandy, >> hot, >> sandy. Well, you want to talk about hot sandy, try uh um >> Fort Irwin. >> Oh, California.

>> Been there a few times, >> haven’t you? >> Yes. >> So, you know exactly what I’m talking about. It is so hot, >> even wearing gloves, you can’t pre-flight the helicopter without burning yourself. Anyway, getting back to getting back to NAM, it was it was an experience. I mean, you know, they they take you out and and they run you through the weapon systems and then the mission basically was since we were a cavalry unit organic to an infantry division.

 The mission of the cavalry unit, especially the air troop, was to go out and do visual reconnaissance. Now, the squadron had three other troops, but they were ground troops, and they would do whatever they were told to do. >> Mhm. >> Go look for the bad guys, find the bad guys, lock on to the bad guys, and then the division would send the infantry and the armor in.

So, and basically that’s what we had an air rifle platoon and um so we’d go out with the scouts. Are you familiar with the H13 or the G47 bell? No. Helicopter, the big the big round bubble. >> Okay. Yeah, I know what you’re talking about. That Are you talking I might sound weird here, but you talk about like the ones I had on MASH.

>> Exactly. >> Okay. We started with those and then we got the O6. When I got to Germany, we had to fly the Bell G47 or the H13 because they didn’t have any equipment over there. Anyway, so the scouts would go out, we’d be overhead, I would be flying, the aircraft commander would have the map maps in his lap tracking wherever these guys were going because they couldn’t do it.

 We had to do it. They would just go and we find something and we we would report it. They couldn’t. And then if they found something that really needed further uh investigation, we’d bring in their rifle platoon and if they hit something, then we’d all back off and then call in the cattle, so to speak. >> All right.

>> The infantry. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I know in my experience helicopters in in Iraq at that time or in Romani at that time only flew at night and that’s because RPGs and gunfire all the time. Everything was with night vision and nighttime. >> Now was that an issue that you guys had or did you do a lot of flights during the day? Did did you take fire while you were flying? >> Both.

>> Oh, okay. >> Day and night and took fire. You bet. >> When you’re doing things like like going out at night or going out at during the day to check out uh on where you’re going to be going, is that mainly just like enemy location, camp uh relocations? I What >> where would they tell us the the mission would come down from division headquarters? We’d mark it on the map.

 Then we go out to that location and do our search. Um we didn’t do that at night. That was only during the day. what we did at night. So, we had one gun team that would be at our base camp and another gun team would be sent to another base camp. Every night they did this. We switch back and forth. So the the team that went to the other site wherever that may be when they came back to Floyd then you were on standby that day whereas the other team was going to go and do the uh standby at night.

So it it worked itself back and forth. >> Okay. And how long were you in Vietnam in country? >> A year. >> It was it was one year. Okay. >> Yeah. >> Now, did you did you find that you had to move around a lot while you were there, or did you pretty much go back to one base all the time? >> Oh, no. We were we were at Foy.

 That was our base. Of course, everything got dicey during Tet the Ted offense of the 68. You familiar with that? >> Where the world turned to poo poo kaka >> at 3:00 in the morning? >> What was it like >> at 3:00 in the morning? >> No, I mean, what was it like for you during the Ted offensive? Oh my god. Um, well, we got woken up at 3:00 with all the incoming rounds you can possibly imagine.

 We used to stay with the Robin Hoods. They were known as the 173rd Assault Helicopter Company. They were at LIK. That’s where division headquarters was. So we they they’d have a tent for us that we could spend the night in, you know, while we’re waiting for something to go on cuz we were on standby when we were with those guys. And if nothing happened, you got a good night’s sleep and that was that.

 And you go back to Fooly the next morning. >> Yeah. But th this particular uh evening morning at 3:00 a.m. um it started coming in and they started racking up some hits. The revetments were fire with burning aircraft and it was it was a mess and so we all grabbed our stuff and ran out to the uh revetments.

 Now picture picture a runway and on one side of the runway you have parallel revetments and the ships that are parked perpendicular in that revetment and further in is is a is a is a pathway which is covered by PSP. You know what PSP is? It’s that metal flooring or or or >> ground covering. Okay. >> Anyway, so by the time I got out there, cuz our aircraft was parked way down the other end of the airfield, the runway rather, everybody had already got in the jeep and they were going and I had to I had to run. So I’m looking over my shoulder

and they’re they’re walking around and I’m going I I’m going to get hit. So, I found a ditch and I jumped in it and it actually the rounds went over my head and I came out of there. I was all covered with dirt and everything. I I got a real a real good appreciation for the Passover holiday. [laughter] >> So, did you make it to your helicopter? >> Oh, yeah.

 We we we I I we got there, grabbed our flashlights, checked it real quick to make sure there were no holes, jumped in, cranked up, and took off. Now, here we go. We’re taking off. It’s dark. There’s still rounds coming in. People are going nuts, and we’re getting we’re climbing up into altitude, and all of a sudden, we start getting flack.

 And I look at my aircraft commander, and he looks at me and I said, “Is this Germany in World War II?” Because that’s what it was, flack. And what they had done is they’d taken the mortar rounds and put proximity fuses on. So they, you know, they’d shoot them up and boom, you know. >> Sky. >> Luckily we didn’t take it. Huh? >> Skyburst.

>> Yeah. Luckily we didn’t take any hits. But I certainly felt for those B7 guys. >> Yeah. And when you when you went out on a mission like that, what’s your fly time? I mean, how long are you in the air? Well, a Bravo model helicopter had about an hour, hour and a half uh worth of fuel on it.

 So, you know, by the time you got Yeah, you had about a good hour maybe on station. That was it. >> Could And was it very often that you would you would go out, come back, refuel, and head out again? >> Oh, yeah. Sure. >> Just back and forth, back and forth. And how long would things like that last? I mean, would that would that be like a day thing or hours? >> Half a day.

>> Half a day. >> But, but this is something you do every day. >> Yeah. if if my team didn’t do it, the other team would. Whereas, we would be back at base camp on standby in case there was something going on out there somewhere where they needed uh gunship support and we would go deal with that. >> Okay.

 Did you ever have times where you were you flew out somewhere, landed, and then had to go do 11 Bravo or infantry type stuff, or was you’re warrant warrant officer in the helicopter and that’s it? >> Okay. Here comes a war story. >> All right. I like those. >> The last thing I saw movie I saw before I got I went in the army was the bridges of Topheri.

If you remember that with William Holden and Mickey Rooney. Mickey Rooney was flying that little helicopter that they had back in the 50s. >> Okay. >> These guys were neat. And that that scared the living you know what out of me. Especially when I went in the army and I was joining an army and I I see this vision of me getting stuck in a ditch and a hundred million thousand Chinese come up and shoot the living daylights out of me, you know.

 So being paranoid, I you know what a claymore bag looks like? >> Yeah. >> Okay. I put 20 magazines in there in the clay for my M16. So I had this hanging over the back of my seat just in case because I was that paranoid, you know. >> Hey, you never have enough ammo. >> No. So we go out to this place called Budap.

 It’s almost by the Cambodian border. It’s a special forces little special forces compound with a dirt runway. And um they they had us park out in the north 40. Um, and there was a tree line behind us where we were parked and our ships were nose facing nose out instead of nose in. So, the the two scouts, I can’t remember if it was the scout uh crew chief or one of ours that had the uh PRC25.

 I guess that was a little before your time. the little radio you carry around. I don’t know what you guys carried. >> Oh, it changed so much in my time in there from the big ones to little. >> So, anyway, it was it was a PRC25. We had it turned out on so that if they wanted to call us from over at the special forces compound, they could.

 And they did. They called us and said, “You’re about to get overrun. There’s a large force coming through the the woods.” And so we grabbed our sidearms, our light weapons, and and there was a ditch, a small ditch. It wasn’t even knee high. It was like thigh high. And so it’s all coming back like, you know, my god, bridges of toki all over again.

 And I’m laying in this thing on my back with my M16 across my chest, my my bag of magazines in my crotch. and just waiting for these guys to come through the you know and because we couldn’t leave with they had blown us out of the sky. >> Yeah. >> So the next thing you know our sister team comes in and now we’re on the receiving end of a gun team.

 They’re firing gatling guns, rockets, machine guns, you name it. They just poured that. And we were on the receiving end of that. We we all got a a a real object lesson of what it’s like to be on the receiving end of a gun team, you know. >> Yeah. >> And it was it was scary to say the least. But anyway, so then once they made their first pass, we jumped up, grabbed our stuff, got in the aircraft, cranked it up, and we took off.

 So after they were finished expending all of their ammunition, we came in. They got a little revenge, so to speak. >> Okay. Okay. So, once you finally got spun up, you could go there and >> Oh, yeah. >> do something about it. >> Yep. >> When you were there and they called you up and told you that these forces were coming, were were they engaging those forces also, or was that just they they from their intel, they knew what was happening.

>> We’re not sure. They were not being engaged. They didn’t get that far. >> Okay. >> They had to get through they had to get through us first before they were going to go down there. >> Okay. So, I guess they had uh scouts out because these are special forces folks. So, I imagine they had scouts out there and um that’s how we found out about it and then everything happened that happened.

>> Yeah. So, we all know the the stories. I don’t say stories as if they’re not true because I know they are, but we all know the stories of of how Vietnam veterans were treated when they got home to the States. Mhm. >> Um, what what was your experience like when you got home? >> I was quite fortunate.

 I I didn’t I didn’t experience what a lot of those guys experienced. Um, coming back to Arizona was quite normal. I mean, there were people waiting for you to waving flags and stuff like that. And I had family and friends, you know, that were more than happy to see me. >> You had a good experience, which is great.

 And I guess first and foremost, I want to thank you and Vietnam era veterans specifically because I am sure that is why I had it so good when I got home is because people like you made sure that things changed and we were taken care of. So, thank you for that. But I always wondered, I’m like, how could people be upset with troops that are out there putting their life in the line? How could they be mad at them? Especially drafted ones.

 I mean, a lot of them wasn’t even their choice, but you’re going to come back and get spit on. I I I I don’t understand it. And now, and again, Echo’s unfiltered, and this show is not about politics, and I have strong views on politics, but that’s not what this is about. With that being said, I look today at Portland and in Minnesota and different things going on and the anger between civilians and government.

And I’m like, wow, that’s probably ex exactly what it was like. there’s just anger between civilians and government and and it turns into this. Would you say that that’s pretty accurate that it was the same and I’m not trying to stereotype or talk down about anybody, but would you say it’s the same type of people today in those areas as was the type of people that were spitting on soldiers when they got home? >> Two points.

 First one is even though I may not have gotten spit on, but trying to get a job after you got home and out of the army. >> Okay. >> There was a lot of discrimination. So, we went through that crap. >> Yeah. >> The second point is I I’m into the the news. I watch it very closely. I see what’s going on. I listen to the nonsense on the radio.

 I listen to the nonsense on on on TV and I and I look back and I say, “You know what? We’ve been here before. It was in the 60s during the Vietnam era. Same crap, same nonsense, same verbiage, same complaints. Nothing’s changed. You’re all, you know, >> okay, >> you’re all >> I’ve always been curious of those.

 same type of thing. Cuz I remember as I grew as I grew well and I grew up during the Cold War, >> but as I grew up, >> I thought, how could people treat other Americans like that? How how is that even possible? But now we’re seeing it again. And again, I’m not taking sides on who’s right and who’s wrong, and that’s and that’s not what this show is about. I have my own opinions.

 They’re not coming here. >> But I I do want to say that I now see the picture more clearly. I I guess >> is how I would say it. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Before we get too much back into home, was there anything back overseas you wanted to talk about before we start talking about what you came across home? >> No, not unless you want to talk about Germany.

>> Sure. >> That was a whole different era. You know, they after the Czech crisis of 68 when the government figured out that they had no combat experience or combat equipment in Europe, everything was a numb freaked them out when the Russians invaded Czechoslovakia. So they started sending everybody there. I went to the second armored cavalry which patrolled the border the political border between East Germany and West Germany and uh there few of my friends from Naan that went to that unit.

 So we had a great time but it was stressful to say the least because you’ve got the entire Russian army sitting over there 66 divisions waiting for the word to go and it it had its moments. we we we could not if we were border qualified, we were not allowed to go outside of uh West Germany. We couldn’t go to Berlin.

We couldn’t do any of those things. So, it was it was a different army. It was a different environment. I felt sorry for the enlisted guys. You know, they came from a war zone to this peacetime area in in Europe where everything was pristine, spit and polish and they couldn’t handle it.

 I mean, you know, they got court marshals were going on up the ying end. The the army didn’t have the moxy, the wherewithal to just relax and and and you know, go with the flow and leave these kids alone >> and realize what they had done to these kids already. and and just let them decompress. I mean, you can’t take people from a war zone and put them in public and say, “Go be normal.

” It’s like >> not as bad, but it’s like taking a third shift cop and put them on first shift and say, “Go take care of the public.” You you treat it differently. >> And and and if the Germans decided they didn’t want to come in one day and shovel coal in the furnaces, guess who got to do it? The enlisted guys. >> Yeah.

>> And boy, you talk about, oh, rebel. I don’t blame him, but what could you do, you know? >> Yeah. >> It was a different animal and it really sucked. >> Yeah. And it’s a lot about what I talk about on this program and I don’t know if you had a chance to listen to any of my episodes yet, but it’s about, you know, PTSD and trauma and unfortunately World War I, World War, it’s shell shock.

 It’s We have different names throughout the years for what what soldiers go through when they’re in war. Mhm. >> And you were taught and I was taught and your dad and your grandfather are probably already taught men don’t talk about their feelings. Men suck it up and drive on. That’s how we handle things. And I did that for many, many years.

Many years I suck it up and drive on. Yes, this sucks uh as a cop and as a soldier. But what I’m trying to normalize here is let’s talk about it. Let’s get it out there. Let’s let’s talk about these things because when you start talking about these things, you you can get past some of the trauma and and live a quote unquote more normal life.

 Whether that is more normal or not, I don’t know. >> But that’s my objective here is to get get men and women who served or have been through trauma just talking about it again. So you got home, you didn’t get spit on, you had a good experience that way, but you said finding a job was really hard. >> Mhm. >> Was that because there was too many people and not enough jobs or because oh, you were a soldier.

 We don’t want you. >> I can’t say, but that’s how I felt. I I there was no proof that what they were doing was discriminating against me trying to get a job with them. I mean they find all kinds of excuses. >> Yeah. >> And but you know I I did manage to work because I got home in April of 70. Uh the the army and its infinite wisdom with department of defense decided to have a reduction in force and started sending people home 6 months early before their obligation was over.

So, I was supposed to have been in Germany until October, but instead they gave me the six-month drop and I got out in April of 70 and then I got home, you know, and I had nothing. I had no college degree. I had no skills other than to kill people, you know, that kind of thing. So, it was it was rough overcoming that and getting used to it.

And yes, they had, you know, these places where you could go to for counseling, but the these guys are idiots. They had no idea what was going on or who they were talking to. >> I don’t think back then they had it figured out yet. >> No, >> I don’t I still don’t know that they have it figured out, but I think they’re better at it.

>> I would agree. I would agree. So, anyway, long story short, like I said earlier, the Department of Defense discovered that they had all this talent sitting out gathering dust and they didn’t they they decided they’re going to take all of these guys that have they they’ve just thrown out and make and build up the garden reserves and that’s what they did.

 They really built them up and uh for those of us that had already, you know, been through all this as far as the training and stuff goes, it was a piece of cake and it was easy just to acclimate back in the military uh atmosphere. So, we had a great time doing that. How long did you stay in the military after Vietnam? >> About 20 plus years.

>> So you you made a career of it. >> Well, in the National Guard, >> right? Okay. Yep. >> Right. And >> so I I I got 24 years under my belt. >> And you came out as a CW4. >> Four. >> CW4. So chief warrant officer four. >> I don’t think I was smart enough to be a warrant officer. >> And then of course in the meantime I joined the PD Phoenix Police Department.

That was going to be my next question because I did the same thing. So tell me about that. >> Since I was in this National Guard unit, there was a bunch of police officers that were in there as well. And they they talk war stories about working on the street and these bad guys and stuff like that.

 And it started, you know, that sounds like fun as opposed to pulling somebody over and just writing them a ticket. You know, that doesn’t sound like any kind of fun at all. So, I looked into it and they weren’t hiring at the time, but I thought, well, maybe I can get in the police reserves. So, I did.

 And the guy that was in charge of the police academy was a a National Guard major, and he knew me and I knew him, but he was captain at at the police department. And I posed to him that I’d like to do the regular police academy, not the reserve academy. that was two years long and I would have to go back through the regular police academy if I got hired.

 I said, “Just let me do this. Put it on record. I’ll have it under my belt and if they start hiring, I’ll have it all done.” He goes, “No one’s ever done that before. >> Time to start.” >> I said, “I’m volunteering.” So, he checked with the police chief and I got an okay and by golly, I went through the PD academy and I graduated in November of uh 74 and they had just opened up hiring and so that Monday, December 2nd, started my first actual day working graveyard shift from 10 at night to 6:00 in the morning.

>> Surprised you weren’t a helicopter pilot? >> No, they I was on probation. >> Did they have a helicopter? >> Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. In fact, a very very very close friend of mine um was a helicopter pilot for the department and he pissed the sergeant off and as soon as I got off probation, they put him my spot and I went to his spot.

 [laughter] >> How do you feel about that? >> It was fun. It was fun. Um there was a lot of animosity amongst the um amongst the pilots because there was only one other guy beside me that was military trained. The rest of them were trained inhouse, not a formal school. So there was some jealousy there, you know, and I put up with that for about nine months.

 And I said, I’m going back on the street. So I did. I went back on the street for a couple years. And then we got determined uh that the Hughes 500D model and the same sergeant was still working there. So I went over approached him and I said look you got two openings. I’d like to come back to air support.

 I want to fly the 500D. I said I’m not going to go through all this crap. If you want me fine. I’ll put in the paperwork if you don’t tell me now so we don’t have to play this game. Right. He says no Bill. He said no Bill. I really need you. I said, “Okay.” So, I I served there for a year and then PTSD got a hold of me. They decided because they didn’t know any better that they were going to put me in an airplane because I was dual rated anyway, but they were going to put me in an airplane.

 I was going to have to look out the window with a pair of binoculars. And I said, “I can’t do that. It it just, you know, it just bothers me. And I can’t explain why.” because we didn’t know about PTSD in those days. >> Yeah. >> So they said, “Well, that’s not going to cut it.” I said, “Fine, send me back on the street.

 If I liked it there before, I’ll like it again later.” You know, and that’s where I stayed. And I got promoted to sergeant. And then from there, I went to lieutenant. That was even more fun. >> And did you retire from the police department? >> Mhm. >> In Arizona. >> Mhm. 32 years. >> Nice. a guy I worked with at the police department who was one of the like administrator type guys who was also a pilot who moved down to Arizona when he retired. Must be a nice place to go.

 I was down at Fort Wuka for AIT. >> That was nice. >> Were you? >> Yeah, I liked it. >> Were you in intelligence? >> My first MOS I was. >> Ah, >> it was Well, it was only intelligence because the amount of uh information we could gather. Otherwise, I mean, well, it wasn’t because I was smart. >> No, aren’t of course you are.

 You wouldn’t be doing this if you weren’t smart. >> Maybe I’m a glutton for punishment. I don’t know. [laughter] But yeah, I I was in uh I was in Arizona just for AIT in the summer. Um it was hot but it was dry because I did basic in Fort Jackson, South Carolina, and that was just humid and >> that was it was awful.

 So I liked I liked Arizona. >> Are you originally from Wisconsin? >> Born and raised. Well, Fort Jackson should as far as the humidity goes, shouldn’t be that much worse. >> Um, it it was more humid and I but I I went to basic in the middle of summer like a dummy. Well, beginning of summer >> and then I finished AIT at the end of summer in Arizona.

 So, I spent the hottest part of the years in uh Arizona and South Carolina. >> I went to Fort Pul for my basic training. >> Okay. Now you had mentioned earlier uh about Fort Irwin. >> Oh yeah. >> Yeah. What did you do at Irwin? >> Well, since we were we hadn’t formed, we were still collecting pilots and aircraft in the first few years of the uh 997’s existence in Arizona.

 Um we had to do annual training for two weeks somewhere. So this one particular year they sent myself and another guy and a handful of NCOs to Fort Irwin for annual training. So being the intelligent warrant officer that I was, the minute that I got there, I took the supply sergeant, the mess sergeant, and the motor sergeant all up for helicopter ride.

>> That was probably one of the smartest moves you ever made. >> I’m sure it was because I got a free car. I got all the food I wanted to eat and, you know, stuff like that. So yeah, I learned my lesson. >> Whenever we’d get new guys at our units, I would take them to supply and I’ll be like, “This is supply.

 This is who you take care of because this is who takes care of you.” And I go into the office, I was like, “This is where your pay comes from. Don’t mess with these people either. Give them what they want, >> right?” >> Yeah. Always make friends with supply. Got any good stories from the police department? >> Oh my. >> In my 10 years, I ran into a lot of uh interesting people.

>> Yes. Well, let’s put it this way. I worked vice the vice unit for two years and then I did night detectives for six and a half years and then I went back to the street for my last three and a half years on the force and um they were all good assignments especially my last three and a half um had a great cast and crew sergeants and officers a lot of them were uh uh veterans Marines But I forgave them for that.

 [laughter] We all got laughs out of it. The thing is though, you know, wherever you go, they know who you are and they know your background. So, you can tell by the reception whether things are going to work well or not. You know, that kind of thing. >> Yeah. >> So, I took care of my people and they took care of me. >> It’s the way it should be.

 That is absolutely the way it should It should be >> right. >> You had like me PTSD issues in in country and then some maybe PTSD type stuff that could pop off at the police department. How did you deal with that? Because I didn’t really have a name back then. >> Well, here’s the deal. When you when you come back, you get out of the army, you’re at a certain height, a certain level of PTSD, probably maxed out.

 And depending on how much time in between you have before that and the time you settle down, you don’t know. But, you know, I I came home, I got into PD, and PTSD level went right back to where it was. Like it maybe it never went down to begin with, you know. So then I carried that over for the next 30 some odd years.

 And then the the day I actually retired, I felt this big sigh of relief, this burden just off my back, you know, and I just started calming down and whatever. My my big my biggest problem was being dead inside. I remember coming home and my best friend who I went to ROC with, he got killed. He was with the first cavalry division.

 He got killed about a week or two after I got in the country and I didn’t know it. My parents wouldn’t tell me. Uh they were in contact with his parents and it wasn’t until later that I found out he had gotten killed. That really upset me. But anyway, I get home and my mother says, “You know, you’re gonna have to go see Frank’s mother.

” And I said, “Yeah, I know.” So, we did. We have gotten my sister and I and my mom got in a car, went down to Frank’s house, and I met his mother. And I’ll tell you, Sam, I never in my life since and before that since felt a woman cry so hard. I mean the the the emotion, the heaving, you know, she just hung on to me.

 It was just like, “Oh my god, this poor woman.” >> Yeah. >> What she was experiencing. I never understood that. I mean, I because I didn’t feel anything. That was the sad part. You know, I felt bad for her, but I didn’t feel it. >> Yeah. I talk a lot about survival mode on the podcast and survival mode is a very healthy thing to have >> when you’re in country or or when you’re on the job.

 It’s not a healthy thing to have in your house. It’s not a in your home. You know, when your civilian life, you need to be able to step out of survival mode. And that’s what a lot of a lot of soldiers and Marines have trouble doing, stepping out of that survival mode. And when we stay in there and we stay at that heightened sense all the time, that’s where the anxiety and the PTSD and stuff like to live right up here.

 And again, I’m not I’m not a counselor or shrink or anything, but >> that’s how it worked out for me. >> Mhm. I found it out. >> Yeah. >> It’s called an emotional orgasm. Think of it this way. We know what the other one is that an emotional orgasm has the same effect upon your body. so to speak. And the way I found that was I used to watch I still do but not as often.

 I like Janette McDonald Nelson Eddie movies. I always was a fan of theirs. And so one time I I watched one of their movies called uh May Time. And I I I at the end I just broke down and cried my eyes out and I thought, hm, where’ this come from? So I thought, okay, well, anytime it starts building up, watch the end of May time and have a box of Kleenex next to you and you’ll feel better the next day. It worked.

Yeah, >> that’s what I would do. That was my That was my release. That was my out. I didn’t need counselors. I didn’t people I didn’t need people to tell me this or tell me that. Just watch that movie. >> Had my emotional orgasm and I was good to go. >> That That’s an interesting way to look at it, you know.

 And you say it like that and and the people who have listened to Echoes Unfiltered know this because I’ve said it probably pretty much every episode, but I sat at this keyboard right here at this computer with through through writing my book and through uh starting this podcast just just weeping just weeping at this keyboard. >> And that was my fi finally just the release, you know, God finally just >> came down, put his hands on me and said, “Okay, I got you.

 I got you. you you’re finally looking for me and I got you. >> Yeah, it gets better as you get older. See, I’m 80 now, right? So, one of the other things I found is that something I always wanted to do was write. So, back in ‘ 07 after I uh retired from the PD, I started writing and I actually have written 12 books so far and self-published them.

Now, the frustrating part about it is all this re-editing because it is a self-publishing. I mean, you know, since nobody is going to give you the time a day and publish your book for you, you got to do it yourself. >> I I’ve got them published and there’s a lot of me in those books. >> Now, are those fiction or non-fiction books? >> Oh, they’re all uh fiction.

>> Yeah. I was I always have to think about the two. I’m like non true. Yeah. Okay. No, no, they’re all they’re all fiction books. And and where can people find your books? >> On my website at mynveltales.com. >> My noveltales.com. I will put a link in the description if anybody’s interested in looking at Bill’s books.

 It’s my noveltales. My noveltales.com. And I will put a link in the description for anybody who’s interested in checking out any of his books. Um, I tried to do some research on you, but alls I could find on you was your books. You put your name in the computer and you find your books. That’s it.

 So, what I noticed is it sounds like you have a lot of uh like your books, even though they’re fiction, are written about places that you’ve been >> like Vietnam and PD and is is that accurate? >> Well, I cheat. But yes, it is true. But the way I cheat is called Google Earth Street View. >> [laughter] >> If I’m writing about something and I want to see where this place is, I’ll go down to Street View.

>> That’s a good idea. >> And yeah, you know, it’s like being there. >> Have you found that writing helps you at all as far as emotionally like with the PTSD? >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. Was huge for me, too. Like, >> yeah. >> This is about you, not me, but I’m gonna say it anyway.

 About a year ago, had you told me that on February 2nd, 2026, I’d be sitting here talking to you on a podcast and talking about a book that I wrote, I I would have called you a liar. Like, number one, I don’t even really like reading that much. I’m a good reader, but I don’t retain well. And number two, I never even listened to a podcast in my life until I started this one.

 I mean, I had my ideas on, you know, here’s the book, here’s why I did the book, I’ll start a podcast, talk about the book. And God said, “You’re right about everything you’re doing, but you’re wrong about why you’re doing it.” And and now it’s become a lot more clear that I’m I’m doing this not to advertise the book, but I’m doing this to help people with trauma that I I believe I was called to the ministry when I was a kid, and I believe this is my ministry.

>> Yep. Yep. There’s there’s a couple of books that have got a lot of me in it and it helped me release some of the pent up frustrations if you will. >> What’s kind of curious about that and cool is that it’s a fiction book. So, you can kind of step, correct me if I’m wrong, but you could probably kind of step outside of yourself and write about you and and like look at yourself almost in a third person.

 And I can see how that would be really helpful. >> Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. >> So people with trauma out there, try writing. Just try it. It might work. I never thought it would be for me. It might be for you. >> Find a movie that makes you cry and then stick with stick with it. >> Yes. Find a movie that makes you cry. There you go.

>> That you admit to. [laughter] >> I didn’t cry when old Jeller died. You can’t prove that. >> Oh my god. You know, I was just thinking about that the other day. Yeah. >> You realize they don’t show that movie anymore? >> Really? >> Well, Bill, I I really appreciate you coming on today.

 It has been an honor to talk to you, sir. Um, >> thank you, sir. >> And, you know, whether it’s on the show or not, I would I would love to have more conversations with you. >> Anytime. >> As long as uh you’re not as annoying as your cousin, we’ll be fine. [laughter] >> And I hope Garl listens to this one because Garl, that’s meant for you.

For those of you who don’t know out there, go uh is a really great dude that I go to church with and his wife Kim who’s been a huge supporter of my book and and telling everybody about it is it’s been wonderful and they just have a heart for the Lord and they’re just really good people. And I had mentioned to Garo, I’m like, “Hey, I’m looking for Vietnam vets to come on Echo Unfiltered to talk.

” And he’s like, “You know what? Let me call my cousin and see if he’d be interested.” And that’s where we got Bill from here. >> Here we are. >> So, Bill again, thank you so much. >> My pleasure. And uh >> my pleasure, Sam. >> I’m gonna save your phone number and I hope you don’t mind if I give you a ring just to just to talk sometime. >> No, not at all. Anytime.

>> All right. God bless and thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> Bye-bye. >> Bye-bye. >> When you sit across from somebody like Chief Warren Officer Bill Hatunion, you get to hear about a lifetime. Not just stories about helicopters or tactics, Vietnam, law enforcement service that just didn’t stop.

 We talked about Hueies, gunships, and the mechanics of war. But underneath it all, we talked about something even bigger. Duty, resilience, and the kind of quiet steadiness that doesn’t make headlines, but shapes history. Bill represents a generation that flew low, took fire, came home, and kept serving.

 And now he’s telling his story in a different way through writing. And if you want to check out his work, you can find it at my noveltales.com. [music] These conversations matter because whether we like to hear it or not, the clock is ticking on older generations. And if we don’t preserve their voices now, we lose more than stories.

 We lose perspective. If you’d like to dig deeper into my story, you can find my book, Echoes from the Sandbox, now available on Amazon. This is Echo Unfiltered. Real talk, raw faith. Stay unfiltered, and God bless. [music] >> [music] [music]